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Archive for March 5th, 2002

[2002-03-05] 吴向军 对于翻译事件的回忆

Posted by woodinwind on March 5, 2002

原文应该是2002年3月5日就是2002那次海外那次讨论的时候吴向军(音译)贴的。那次讨论的主要地点是mitbbs,xys,yahoogroups,在rolia.net可能也有,但是当时没有关注到。

下文转自天涯
http://www8.tianya.cn/publicforum/Content/free/1/484171.shtml
为热心网友转贴。

作者:啄木鸟11 回复日期:2006-2-12 16:57:22

——–
送交者: wuxj 于 March 05, 2002 22:16:14:

I was the roommate of Bei Zhicheng and Cai Quanqing in Beida. I witnessed the whole thing and was among the numerous people who provided help. I remembered the names of Xin Li and Dr. Aldis. Li’s website in UCLA is extremely organized and contains most of the information. All the facts in Yuan’s long article were pretty much accurate except his/her imagination about the relationship between the two daughters’ tragedy of Zhu’s family was never confirmed.

There are quite a few things that are significant in this event: Internet, telemedicine, medical accident due to the ego of doctor(s) in PUMC, murder, struggle of a devastated family, etc. In fact, the publicity of this event made Internet a household name in the early 1995. I know many people in China who first heard of Internet from this story. People from all over the country sent letters to Bei and Cai asking for medical help year after this event. However here I’d like to make some comments from a different point of view.
[ 相约加拿大:枫下论坛 rolia.net/forum ]
The courage and perseverance of Bei when facing challenges and confronting authorities. In China, no too many people have the guts to consistently question the opinion of authorities like PUMC with little medical knowledge. Getting help from Internet was easy comparing to the battles later on fought with PUMC. Bei showed sound judgment and spirit of independence. Although he didn’t finish school due to his own choice, I admire him as a true Beidaer in this regard.

The help from numerous people. Bei was Zhu’s classmate in high school and they hadn’t been in contact for years by them. Cai at that time was playing around in Prof Chen Yaosong’s lab as a Sophomore student. He provided the idea of Internet news groups and all that. 10 people lived in our room at that time. We were all astonished by Bei’s description of Zhu’s symptom after his visit to PUMC. Almost all of us were helping in this case. We sat in front of the dummy terminals in the lab downloading the responses from the Internet with a connection of 100bytes per second even in the midnight (that was early 1995) and analyzed those letters in the dorm. With several thousand responses, the analysis itself was quite a job. I was really moved by the kind of helping spirit in my room, in the lab and, needlessly to say, on the Internet. Prof Chen even gave us several hundred RMB to have a decent meal. What a nice guy! However, Zhu Ling’s friends and classmates in Tsinghua never contacted us to provide help. I remember I went to Tsinghua asking for help from her fellow classmates in one weekend when we were really short of hands. Nobody showed even a slice of interest. On the contrary, they showed clear distance from this. That kind of coldness hurt us so much. We never contacted them again. Thallium was all over Zhu Ling’s drinking glass (as I remembered) in her room. She was clearly poisoned by people close to her. The prime suspect was her classmate although never convicted. I still wonder how her roommates and classmates could live with that! This kind of feeling grew stronger over time as I understand more and more about humans. I am not really into the debate over the superiority between Tsinghua and Beida. But I have no doubt that Bedaers, not Peking University, in a sense, will always be the conscience of China.

Seven years has passed. Now I am sitting in front of my computer in an office in the Silicon Valley. I have changed a lot. However, I wonder whether the result would be different should this case happen again in China today. If some day somebody wants to make a movie or write a book about this, I would like the book or movie to be about the nature of human beings, not just about Internet, a murder case, or a medical accident.
翻译:
我和贝至诚、蔡全清是同一个宿舍的,我目击个整个事情的经过,并且是众多参与救助者中的一员。我记住了李新(音译)和Aldis博士的名字。李在加州大学洛杉矶分校(UCLA)就这件事制作了一个组织得非常好的网站,网站包括了有关这件事情的绝大部分信息。有一个姓袁(音译)的人写过一篇很长的文章,里面对这件事情的说法是相当准确的,除了对朱家姐妹二人悲剧之间的关联有猜测的成分,这种猜测从未被证实。
在这个事情上有几个显著的元素:互连网、网上救助、协和医院因医生自私而导致的医疗事故、凶手、被毁家庭的挣扎等等。在1995年,这件事情使互连网成为家喻户晓的名词。我认识的很多人是从这个故事中了解到互连网的。从那时开始,全国各地有很多人写信给贝和蔡请求医疗上的帮助。当然,在这里我不是来讨论互连网的。
贝无疑是非常有勇气和决心去迎击挑战和面对权威的。在中国,如果没有医学知识,很少人有勇气质疑象协和这样的权威判断。与这种挑战相比,网上救助显然是一件非常容易的事情。贝的独立精神使他作出正确判断。虽然他在北大并未完成学业,我依然认为他是真正的北大人。
在众多帮助朱令的人当中,贝是朱令的高中同学,毕业之后,他们就没有再联系。当时蔡作为二年级的学生在陈耀松(音译)教授的实验室工作。是他首先提出利用网上的新闻组。当时我们宿舍有10个人。贝去协和探望朱令后向我们描述了朱令的症状,我们都非常震惊。我们10个人都参与了救助。我们坐在实验室的计算机终端前,缓慢地下载互连网上的回应,1995年的网速只有100b每秒,即使是深夜网速也没有变得更快。然后把这些资料拿回宿舍分析。网上回应的信息有几千个,所以分析的工作量也非常大。宿舍、实验室、互连网,我被我们这种帮助人的精神所感动。陈教授还给了我们几百块钱让我们大吃了一顿。多好的人啊。但是,朱令在清华的朋友和同学从来没有主动联系过我们。我记得,因为缺少人手,有一个周末我去清华找她的同学增援,没有人表现出兴趣。相反,他们刻意保持距离。这种冷漠刺伤了我们。以后我们再也没有和他们联系过。朱令宿舍她喝水的杯子充满了铊(我记得)。显然她是被身边的人所毒害。主要的嫌疑人是她的室友,虽然未被证实。我还是感觉奇怪:朱令的室友和同学是如何与她相处的呢。随着时间的流逝,我对人性的越来越了解,这种感觉就越来越强烈。我并非想引发北大和清华的争论,但无疑北大人,并非北大,一直是中国人的良知。
很多年过去了。现在我坐在我在硅谷的办公室电脑前。我已经改变了很多。但是,我还是很怀疑,在中国的今天,这种事情如果再发生,究竟会不会有不同的结果。如果有一天,有人想把这件事情写一本书,或拍成电影,我希望这本书或这部电影是有关人性的,而不仅仅是关于互连网、谋杀或医疗事件。

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[2002-03-05] 新语丝读者对朱令中毒案的评论

Posted by woodinwind on March 5, 2002

http://www.xys.org/xys/ebooks/others/report/zhuling2.txt

◇◇新语丝(www.xys.org)(www.xys3.org)(groups.yahoo.com/group/xys)◇◇

新语丝读者对朱令中毒案的评论

truist评论:

这是一个国家对一个人的谋杀。

铊的性质有点像银,是少数几种剧毒的无机物。至少可以状告清华大学
北京大学等单位对剧毒物品管理不善,负责赔偿医疗及其他费用,并对
家属进行民事赔偿。投毒的罪犯,当然应该绳之以法,从结果来看,是
属于故意杀人罪,应当判处相应的徒刑。清华北大某些有关人员也应该
引咎辞职。可是这些事情,都不了了之,可恨。大家记下这笔帐吧。

以后大家如果感觉不对劲,应该立即想到无机物中毒。通常生物制品的
毒性不会延续很长,只有无机物和一些有机物能够使人中毒并延续很长
时间。对于无机金属(铅,汞,铊,铜,银等),通常采用络合剂EDTA
排毒。我有一个老师,曾经体内放射性重金属中毒,使用过这样的疗法,
据云是感觉很累。他目前健康。

有机物慢性中毒好像以苯环类居多。中国制鞋业里面有许多可怜的打工
妹,她们长期接触苯或甲苯配制的胶,通过皮肤和呼吸中毒(慢性)。
后果之一是再障(血液再生障碍),无可医治。大家到Wal-Mart或者
K-Mart(已经倒闭)买便宜的中国鞋时,千万不要忘记这些受屈辱的灵
魂。

xinli评论:

Hi, I helped to coordinate the diagnosis and coordinated the treatment
processes for Zhu Ling in 1996 when I was a graduate student at UCLA.
I want to share what I know to answer some of the questions posted at
this site.

1. ZHU Ling’s nickname is Lingling.

2. About the suspect girl, some of us pervaded the US Embassy in
Beijing to stop her from coming to USA. Some of us even tried to use
US media to make some influence. However, there is no hard evidence,
on the other hand, we were afraid that the suspect family backed by
some Beijing officials might accuse the US media of manipulating
politically which would do no good for Zhu Ling’s care. We know her
name and we know where the case was stopped. It was such a hard
decision made together with her family not to pursue that way. But
that does not mean we give up on it. If Zhu Ling’s family changed the
decision, we will certainly do something. No doubt about that.

3. Here is what the PUMC(协和) did wrong:
Dr. Li at PUMC did GUESS it could be thallium-poisoning. I use GUESS
here instead of “diagnosed”, because a diagnosis must be backed by a
test. Her symptom reminded him a poisoning-poisoning case in Tsinghua
Univ. 30 years ago. Not being a poisoning specialist, Dr.Li sent the
case to Beijing Inst. of Labor Hygiene & Occupational Diseases. The
vice chair of the institute, based on ZHU Ling’s word that she had
never contacted Thallium before, concluded that it was not a Thallium
poisoning. No test was asked to support that GUESS. Prof. Chen who
conducted the correct test later was working in the institute but he
was not contacted for help. Prof.Chen was contacted by ZHU Ling family
later.
You see here, PUMC did nothing wrong at first place and Dr.Li did
right thing to refer the case to a specialist. It was the vice chair
in the Occupational Institute that made a conclusion without a test.
However, Dr.Li and his colleagues who took care of the case together,
TRUSTED the vice chair’s result without demanding a solid test result.
As the primary care provider for the patient, PUMC was responsible to
make scientific judgement based upon specialist consultation to make
proper case management. PUMC failed to do that.
Second thing that PUMC did wrong was to refuse to consider the
Internet suggestions. ZHU Ling’s family brought the Internet diagnosis
of Thallium collected by BEI Zhicheng (ZHU Ling’s friend) and others,
but PUMC refused to consider it. When I called the ICU about treatment,
they refuse to talk to me initially. Dr.Aldids had to use his
diplomatic efforts to deliver some message to PUMC. His warm efforts
often met the cold door. During those days, many of the people
involved were trying every effort simply to convince PUMC.
It might be true that PUMC later bright ZHU Ling better care than
other hospitals could. But PUMC’s initial arrogance and ignorance
significantly delayed the diagnosis and treatment. The longer the delay,
the more the poison damaged ZHU Ling neurologically.
4. As a side talk, medicine in China is often based upon experience
but here in US it is also science. This is because doctors in US
usually have bachelor degree in science and also because the strict
legal system.

Xin Li

For details, check the web site at UCLA:
http://www.radsci.ucla.edu/telemed/zhuling/. Since I came to Silicon
Valley, I have not updated the site.
yuan评论:

I was involved in the internet diagnosis

I was involved from very early on and called many doctors
in the states many times. I was working at a hospital at that
time.
Actually, it is so easy to diagnose, doctors predict it to be
Ta poisoning and it has been found in murder case before. One
forensic doctor predicted that there must be someone behind the
it. Unforunately, Doctors at PUMC did not take action quick
enough and do not even believe that it was the case. It was later
proved to be true but no one was arrested for it.
Her sister was a student of Beijing University. After I went to
Beida in later 80s, her story was told to us. But it was told
that she fell off accidentally while on field trip. Only’
after her sister’s case, people got suspecious about her
mysterious death, because no witness seemed to know if no
foul play was involved.
I got very suspecious over her family’s history. Rumor had it
that her family had vicious enemy, maybe from the 70s and would
not let her family go. But I do not know if it is true.
I communicated with her mom several times on the internet. A reporter
from Italy called my lab and talked to me for a while and published
something there, but I did not see the article. Then
another chinese student from UCLA got involved with his boss because
they were doing remote diagnosis project. He was on TV shows in the
LA area later. I was too busy and eventually let go.

It was such a tradgy. I felt horrible and got scared about
the whole thing. Someone lurked out there!

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